Talk: Light Dungeon

Definition of a light dungeon

OK, so along the same lines as the conversation I started over at Talk:Earth Dungeon, I think we need to decide on a concrete definition of a light dungeon, because there's pretty much nothing the current members of the category all have in common that distinguishes them from other dungeons. We've got dungeons that use light puzzles (Spirit Temple, Ancient Castle of Ikana, Stone Tower Temple), religious structures (Spirit Temple, Tower of the Gods, Temple of Time, Tower of Spirits, Ancient Cistern, and maybe Stone Tower Temple), and dungeons set in places clearly associated with the side of good (both versions of Hyrule Castle, Tower of the Gods, Temple of Time, and Tower of Spirits). Note that none of these factors is exclusive to dungeons currently included in this category: the Earth Temple in The Wind Waker uses light puzzles, City in the Sky and Goron Mines are structures clearly built and used by allies to the protagonists (and really, an awful lot of the dungeons in this series are implied to be structures built by and for good guys that the bad guys took over rather than structures built by and for the bad guys or natural or otherwise unaffiliated structures), and something like half the dungeons in this series either currently are or originally were religious structures of some kind. So what exactly is a light dungeon, then?

I must confess I don't have a definition proposal ready to go the way I did with earth dungeons, but my hope is that we can hash one out here. Alternatively, if we can't really come up with anything, perhaps we should simply retire the category. If it's going to remain a nebulous grouping with shifting membership, I don't see much use for it. Obviously, we'd only do this if it became really clear that there was no useful concrete definition that people could agree on. --Osteoderm Jacket 15:26, 19 February 2012 (EST)

How about we use something similar to what you proposed for Earth Dungeons? You mentioned 3 criteria: the interior setting, puzzles and/or items related to the theme, and hazards. I've had some thoughts, so bear with me.

1-Setting. In the real world, many religions have a fixation with the heavens and with light. I think we all instinctively know that light is the source of all life; we need the sun to survive. Therefore, many religions have the sun or light as their main object of worship. Even to Christians, "The glory of God is... Light and Truth." While various religions may worship deities associated with other elements, the heavens and Light are the primary focus of worship (Ra of the Egyptians, Zeus of the Greeks).

Now, lets turn to the Zelda series. The Temple of Time, the Spirit Temple; many of these dungeons have a fixation with light. Lets have the setting be a religious structure devoted to, or focused on light.

2-Puzzles. The puzzles would be related to light in some way. The Spirit Temple and Stone Tower Temple feature mirrors to reflect light, and light-sensitive switches in the shape of the sun, in addition to using light arrows in the latter. The Tower of Spirits has Link gathering Tears of Light to power up his sword. The Tower of the Gods and the Temple of Time are more subtle; for example, pressing a switch to make a bridge of light appear, or using a rod that shoots out a ball of light. In any case, the puzzles focus on light.

Granted, reflecting light using mirrors is used in some Shadow Dungeons. This shows a subtle interplay of elements; while the dungeons are primarily Shadow themed, one must use Light to penetrate the Dark and advance. These dungeons are showing the relationship between light and dark. Though opposites, each is linked to the other.

3-Hazards. Are not the laser beams in these dungeons focused beams of light? Thus light acts as a hazard and a hindrance in Link's quest.

I hope that was plain enough. What do you think?--Feanor 02:43, 14 March 2012 (EDT)

Light Dungeon doesn't need to be changed in all seriousness. It's easy to define what it is, so why do we need to alter it? Lahmaster 7:25, 14 March 2012 (AEST)

I was totally agreeing with you, albeit in a long-winded way. Osteoderm Jacket said the definition was too vague; I was simply trying to clarify things. I used the same pattern used in Earth Dungeons, and that pattern seems to be used for the other dungeon types as well: setting, puzzles, and hazards. Those categories are all addressed in the Light Dungeon article. I just don't want the page to be deleted, that's all. :) --Feanor 14:13, 14 March 2012 (EDT)

I don't think the page should be deleted either, unless we as a community determine that we can't come up with a useful definition of a light dungeon. In other words, unless after discussing this it's clear to the community in general that the category not only doesn't currently have a useful definition but no good alternative exists. I support keeping the page provided we can be consistent about what belongs there.

So let me see if I understand you correctly: You think that having literal light as a thematic element, either aesthetically or as an element of puzzles or hazards, is sufficient to class a dungeon as a light dungeon. You include "religious structure[s] devoted to, or focused on light" as part of this. In that case, which dungeons would you remove from the page that are currently there, and which would you add? Because it seems to me like under the definition you've laid out, there are some dungeons on this page that don't belong there (e.g. Hyrule Castle), and others that aren't on this page that should be (e.g. Earth Temple).

Also, a great many dungeons in this series are religious structures. I'm not sure the ones currently on this page are necessarily "devoted to light" any more than the others are. If you mean literal light, it's not really clear in what respect the dungeons on this page are more devoted to it than others (the Temple of Droplets has immense skylights letting light through that are a puzzle element, for instance), and if you mean figurative light, as in goodness or holiness, why do we think the "temple/shrine" dungeons on this page are any more devoted to that than other religious structures in this series? Most of the "temple" or "shrine" dungeons are supposed to have been built by the good guys too, you know.

Lastly, honestly I think considering the puzzles in the Temple of Time to be light-based is a bit of a stretch. The fact that a ball of light comes out of the Dominion Rod doesn't strike me as a particularly good argument for considering the dungeon as a whole to be light-themed. --Osteoderm Jacket 03:31, 15 March 2012 (EDT)

Firstly, you wanted to know which dungeons I would change around. Lets start with Hyrule Castle. Whether you measure Hyrule Castle by my proposition, or by the definition already on the page, or simply compare it to the other dungeons on the page, it clearly doesn't belong there. I'm thinking it was put there by someone back when people were assigning every dungeon an element (kind of like the Temple of Courage).

Regarding the Earth Temple... lets look to the Ice Dungeons for an example. A handful of ice dungeons (such as the Snow Temple of ST) require the use of fire to advance, and yet they are clearly ice dungeons. Fire simply serves as a sub-element. These dungeons show the interplay of opposing elements. Similarly, a small handful of shadow dungeons use light elements to compare and contrast opposites. The few shadow dungeons that do this are requiring the hero to use light to penetrate and conquer the darkness. So far as I'm aware, the only dungeons that do this are Ikana Castle, the Earth Temple(TWW), and the Palace of Twilight. I see two courses of action we could take: we could list light as a sub-element on these pages; or we could list them only as Shadow Dungeons (like the Snow Temple is only listed as an Ice Dungeon).

You make a good point concerning the Temple of Droplets; I had forgotten about that one, and I don't have an answer for you. And I admit that the Dominion Rod is a weak argument for the Temple of Time being light-themed. Also, you are right that buildings built by the good guys encompasses most of the dungeons. However, I'd like to mention a little bit about the Japanese religion that may throw light on our discussion. The Japanese believe spiritual forces exist in nature, and they devote shrines to these forces or deities (mountains, rivers, wind, forests). And, one of their chief deities is the Sun Goddess, Amaterasu. They have shrines devoted sacred forests, and shrines devoted to the celestial light streaming down from the heavens. The same thing holds true in Zelda. We have religious structures devoted to forests(and all the other elements), and religious structures devoted to light and the heavens. I realize my proposed definition is not totally correct, and I'm open to suggestions.--Feanor 23:22, 16 March 2012 (EDT)

I understand that. The thing is, I don't see how most of the religious structures currently on this page are supposed to be devoted to light specifically, with the exception of those that directly use light (Spirit Temple, Ancient Castle of Ikana, Stone Tower Temple). Most of them (Tower of the Gods, Temple of Time, Tower of Spirits, Ancient Cistern) appear not to be devoted to a specific natural force, or at least not to light. --Osteoderm Jacket 18:22, 3 April 2012 (EDT)

So, what would you propose we do with this page, my friend? Are you saying that we should only include the dungeons that directly use light? Well, what about the Tower of the Gods? Although it doesn't include mirrors, light beams, and light-sensitive switches, it still seems to be at least somewhat light-based to me. In several rooms, Link must press a switch to make a bridge of light appear. Also, the Beamos of this dungeon don't seem to be mechanical constructions, like most other Beamos; these seem to be formed of light energy. Should we just not consider these things to focused enough on light? Would these be considered standard, generic puzzles and obstacles? (By the way, I hope I didn't sound rude when I was mentioning the Temple of Droplets. I was trying to say that I'm not sure what we should do.) I hope we can come up with something that works for this page.--Feanor 17:37, 7 April 2012 (EDT)

Basically, what constitutes "light based puzzles"? There are light beams, mirrors, and sun switches/blocks appearing in OoT, MM, and WW; the Palace of Twilight uses Sols/Light-infused Master Sword with light sensitive switches, along with riding on platforms of light. Should the puzzles in the Tower of the Gods be considered light themed?--Feanor 20:53, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

First, I'd like to apologize for not replying for so long. I've been away from the wiki for a while.

What mean by "light-based puzzles" is puzzles that involve using light itself, puzzles where light is reflected, transmitted, absorbed, etc. Puzzles where light acts like light. The structures in the Tower of the Gods you mention are made of something glowy and ethereal, yes, but they don't actually behave differently from structures made of mundane materials, so it's ultimately a cosmetic difference. You could have the exact same puzzles and hazards with different materials. The way the dungeon works would not be changed if the platforms and bridges in the Tower of the Gods were made of stone or if the Beamos were the familiar statue variety. By contrast, the Spirit Temple, the Stone Tower Temple, the Earth Temple from The Wind Waker, and the Temple of Droplets use puzzles where the path of a beam of light must be shortened, lengthened, or changed in direction. These are puzzles based around how light behaves. --Osteoderm Jacket 05:21, 8 July 2012 (EDT)

Ultimately, each of these "X Dungeon" pages is supposed to be about a recurring dungeon archetype in this series. Most of these are fairly clear with many examples of similar dungeons across many games, e.g. fire/lava-based dungeons, water dungeons, forest dungeons, ice dungeons, desert dungeons, and so on and so forth. I started this conversation because it didn't seem to me like what was currently listed on this page really conformed to such an archetype, instead being a set of dungeons with no feature that they all shared. It's easy to envision a prototypical member of most of the other dungeon types, e.g. a prototypical ice dungeon. What is the prototypical light dungeon? --Osteoderm Jacket 05:28, 8 July 2012 (EDT)

When I first made this page, the definition I envisioned was the religious one. I know most temples and palaces in the series are technically religious, but I aimed at those whose architecture, atmosphere and elements related to the major gods of the lore, or that had a very sacred value. The (as you call them) "prototype dungeons" I considered for this definition are Tower of the Gods and Temple of Time, respectively from TWW and TP. I then reunited the dungeons that fit the archetypes best, such as Great Palace (which I myself removed later because, admittedly, none of the NES dungeons were capable of having distinct elemental themes due to the technological restrictions at the time), Hyrule Castle (because it's the core of Hyrule's royalty), Tower of Spirits (because it holds the sacred power capable of sealing Malladus), and the like. The Spirit Temple and Stone Tower Temple and Ancient Castle of Ikana were added by people who instead recurred to the literal definition of "light dungeon". So (at least from my perspective) it would only be matter of deciding which definition to stick to, and go for it so we can list the dungeons fitting best.

In any case, I consider all of this a personal old shame for me. The whole element listing was my idea, and it happened when I discovered the Forest Dungeon, Fire Dungeon and Water Dungeon articles, which at the time had existed as disambiguation pages. Because I had already defined each element theme in the dungeon article (under the Clasification section), I thought it would be a good idea to channel that information into these disambiguation pages, to then turn them into main pages including galleries of fitting dungeons. I then created articles for the themes that weren't there yet (namely, desert, shadow, earth and light), so the collection would be complete.

Unfortunately, it seems like not everybody understood very well the way to work with these stuff. Some started adding dungeons into themes that didn't fit for them, and viceversa. Others started suggesting silly themes ("poison", "wood"), and then came the nadir: Someone created the Electric Dungeon page. Now, that one has since backed up nicely thanks to the dungeons in Skyward Sword pertaining to the theme of electricity and mechanical stages, but nonetheless it made me regret having started this whole ordeal in the first place. It's all my fault that this and all other discussions about thematic classification exist. I am to be blamed for this whole mess. I never wanted to confuse anybody with these stuff, the only intention was to systematically classify a dungeon, without the necessity of looking too hard at what it shows or how it's constituted. If I had my will, I'd go back to limiting these definitions to the Dungeon article, merging the pertaining pages in the process. But being a rogue user may likely impede me from offering these suggestions at all. --K2L (Interrogatory) 19:58, 8 July 2012 (EDT)

That's an interesting bit of history, K2L. I think that the basic concept behind these dungeon elements is useful, in that they provide a way to quickly go from a given dungeon to similar dungeons elsewhere in the series, and most of these design/gameplay archetypes are pretty well-defined and should be noted somewhere. I also agree that the Temple of Time (as it appears in TP) and the Tower of the Gods are very similar in a lot of ways and the former is pretty obviously inspired by the latter. (The same could be said of quite a lot of things in TP in relation to TWW, honestly.) That said, I just don't clearly see a series-wide recurring dungeon archetype that those two dungeons are part of. And it's that very necessity of "looking too hard" that makes me doubt the usefulness of the "light dungeon" category; it's not as intrinsically obvious as, say, fire dungeons. I agree that classifying a dungeon as having a given theme should only be done if the theme is obvious.

I'd be fine with merging these dungeon types back into the dungeon article, provided that we do continue to list which dungeons are of which type, as I think that is actually relevant information. --Osteoderm Jacket 23:14, 8 July 2012 (EDT)

Regarding the continuity of listing dungeons by type, an advantage in our favor is that we already have the fire, water, darkness, light, wind and sand articles, which not only define those elements from the physical perspective, but also from the symbolic perspective, thus providing more general and complete information. And because the fire, water, wind, darkness and sand articles too include the dungeons related to them anyway, we won't necessarily lose the galleries that are currently on the dungeon theme articles if these get merged with the Dungeon article. Regarding the Light one, because it defines the subject from both perspectives as well, we could move the images of this article to that one, separating those about dungeons that only refer symbolically to the element, from those where light has a literal, physical presence through the puzzles. That's what I'd suggest, anyway.

The remaining problem would be where to put the images regarding the forest, earth and electric dungeons. You already suggested Forest to turn into a main article instead of a disambiguation, so that one wouldn't be a concern. Regarding Earth dungeons, we could channel them into Mountain (which, surprise, is too a disambiguation at this moment), or Cave. And for the Electric ones they're already in the body and gallery of Technology in The Legend of Zelda Universe, where we could talk with a little more detail about the Electric dungeons. --K2L (Interrogatory) 00:11, 9 July 2012 (EDT)

I don't agree with merging the earth dungeon list into Mountain, as not all dungeons currently classified as "earth dungeons" are on or in mountains. Cave works better with what we currently have. That said, I'm also not really sure it's worth having a separate "earth dungeon" category to begin with. Most of the members of the present category overlap with "fire dungeon" to some extent (mostly cosmetically in the case of the ALttP version of Turtle Rock, mind you). What's left either has questionable dungeon status (Cave of No Return, which is a stage in a game that doesn't have a solid dungeon vs. overworld distinction since both play in the same fashion and is currently being treated as a dungeon while many other caverns are not) or is an "earth dungeon" in a very different way that doesn't fit any established dungeon archetype (Fortress of Winds, which is based around digging with the Mole Mitts). There doesn't seem to be a distinct recurring "earth-themed" type of dungeon that's distinct from "fire-themed" dungeons. --Osteoderm Jacket 00:24, 9 July 2012 (EDT)

And I actually have used Turtle Rock as a model to define the Earth type .... ah well, I guess the ED page and archetype will just have to be merged with the Dungeon article if the wiki's userbase votes in favor of merging these article. In any case, as I said before, I no longer want to participate too much into this because I'm still wishing I never bothered about this whole elemental mess in the first place. The trouble I caused with it is just not worth the try. When I do something and it backfires for some reason, I don't bother even touching it anymore, and that's largely the same case here. =/ --K2L (Interrogatory) 00:46, 9 July 2012 (EDT)

I read most of this discussion (I got bored around 3/4 of the way) and it seemed people were basing the definition too much around physical light. I always thought of light dungeons not being based entirely around physical light. I always thought of it as the more religious definition that was mentioned earlier. I think both should possibly be included as definitions, or they could be split into two elements. What I mean is the Spirit Temple is light-based because light is necessary for some puzzles. However, Tower of the gods is light-based because it was created as a test for the Hero of Winds, and only for that purpose. Temple of time also seemed light-base in this way, because it seemed to be a religious place, it just somehow gives me the FEEL of a Light Dungeon. That's another thing, almost all of the dungeons on the page just seem to BE Light Dungeons, and I hardly think stripping a definition on them is necessary in most, if not all, cases. I think both (physical/spiritual) should possibly be included as definitions, or they could be split into two elements. --Planetbox (talk) 19:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we can be basing elements on "feelings," that's very subjective for a topic that should be objective. If a dungeon is defined as elemental, the element should be dead obvious, not subtle. Physical objects (water, lava, manipulable light, etc.) are obvious. — Hylian King ^[*] 15:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

That's not really what I meant. While that does make sense, in some cases spiritual elements can be rather obvious as well. Just the music in Great Bay Temple for example probably gives most people an industrial or electric vibe. The same can happen for other dungeons in different ways, like the Temple of Time. --Planetbox (talk) 17:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)