Zelda Wiki:Hyrule Castle/Archive 13

Status of dungeon names in the Valiant comics
Feel free to move this topic to another page if it should be somewhere else; I'm rather unsure where this should be, since it's about an issue that spans several articles, but it's about a specific detail that potentially affects all of them. I'm posting this here because I can't find the original "X Labyrinth" vs. "X" discussion for dungeons in The Legend of Zelda.

It does seem that in the game's manual and in all definitely canonical sources I'm aware of the dungeons are referred to as "Eagle", "Moon", "Manji", etc. and the names "Eagle Labyrinth", "Moon Labyrinth", "Manji Labyrinth", etc. do not appear. However, I can't help but notice that the "X Labyrinth" names are mentioned in excerpts from the ambiguously-canon Valiant comics. Does this usage have any relevance? Although the events of the comics have dubious canonicity, does this mean names used in them are to be disregarded altogether, or are they still treated as "official" names? If they are, should they be treated as having equal validity with the "Labyrinth"-less names and usage of them on the wiki not changed, or should they be "secondary" names, with usage of the "primary" names from the manual preferred? I ask this because I noticed this usage in the comics while editing the old "X Labyrinth" names to their "X" forms from the manual. --Osteoderm Jacket 18:55, 4 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Hmm...that's interesting, I hadn't noticed that. I think that the article names should just be without the "Labyrinth" stuff, since that's not how they're called in any of the "true" canon material (games, game manuals, etc.). However, I don't really think it's...necessary to change out the old "X Labyrinth" to "X" from articles that are not about the actual labyrinth in question. Of course, that may just be me being lazy, but if others want to go ahead and do it, that's fine by me. :P --Dany36 18:26, 6 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I should hedge this a little. Because the comics, like most English-language comics, use all caps, it's not clear (at least from the excerpts and scans; I haven't read the comics and it's possible that the names are mentioned in case-sensitive contexts somewhere) whether the dungeons are being called "X Labyrinth", which implies that "Labyrinth" is part of the dungeon's name, or "X labyrinth", which implies that it is not. The example I'm thinking of, on Eagle, is quoted with "labyrinth" not capitalized, but the comic itself is all caps so that probably doesn't mean much. --Osteoderm Jacket 00:55, 8 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I'm late on this, but what Osteoderm said was my main reasoning for moving the pages in the first place. The manual never refers to the dungeons as "Eagle Labyrinth" with caps, merely Eagle labyrinth. And since the term "dungeon" was not in use yet, it is merely just a describing word rather than an actual name. When the dungeons are listed in the manual, they are simply given single names, including Death Mountain, and Hyrule Historia does this too. The official guide for the game ALSO refers to them simply by their single names. Besides all that, the cartoons and comics are in no way canon, anyway. Of course, referring to them as "X labyrinth" is perfectly acceptable and can help allieviate confusion, but it's best to keep labyrinth in lowercase, I think. Otherwise it would be like calling the Forest Temple the "Forest Temple Dungeon". 15:04, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

'Confirmed' user right
Hey, everyone. I don't want to wait 30 days and have 200 edits to become autoconfirmed. I wish a 'confirmed' user right could be set up on Zelda Wiki so it is necessary for accounts to be exempted from the customary confirmation period. The 'confirmed' group should contain the same rights as the 'autoconfirmed' group. After the 'confirmed' user group is set up, please list the group at Help:Group Rights. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 14:44, 5 June 2012 (EDT)
 * The problem is, we think of Autocomfirmed as a reward for users who have shown their interests into editing and expanding on the articles that revolve around the Legend of Zelda. If the requirements were to be set down to this low, many users would take advantage of this and just edit their userpages, which doesn't contribute to the wiki at all. I would have to disagree. XXSuperXXNintendoXx 15:38, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
 * While the rest of the staff and I agree that 200 edits is slightly excessive, I must say it's really not that hard to accumulate edits here. Having been around wikis and having the know-how, I understand how frustrating it is to be limited on rights. However, I also understand that these limits are in place for a reason: to prevent nonconstructive edits, spam bots and vandalism and to ensure that users know both how to edit and how this wiki runs. The 30-day limit ensures that the users have an ample opportunity to get a feel for how things are ran.
 * Now, the staff have taken your suggestion into consideration, but have decided that it's not enough of an issue to warrant any considerable change. As aforementioned, it's simple to rack up the edits, and there are several pages needing improvement that you can easily tackle to complete this. As for the 30-day limit, we ask that you show patience; this time will likely pass much quicker than you expect. 16:19, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
 * It's pretty important that a wiki with autoconfirm limits has a 'confirmed' user right for users who don't want to wait until they are autoconfirmed. 30 days and 200 edits is too long for me to become autoconfirmed. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 23:32, 6 June 2012 (EDT)


 * The staff has given a lot of thought to the matter and we adamantly believe this would not be right for us. One reason being that we are supposed to be the wiki of the Zelda community; made by the people, for the people. In the vast majority of the decision-making at Zelda Wiki, every user's opinion counts just as much as that of the staff. And so it would go against that philosophy for the staff alone to decide who gets to be exempted from certain rules. Personally, I would feel like a hypocrite with that kind of responsibility.


 * That being said, we are more than willing to discuss lowering the standards for the autoconfirmed group. Many users, myself included, feel as though 30 days and 200 edits is excessive. As already discussed, many of us would be confortable with even cutting the standards in half—100 edits and 2 weeks—if userpage edits could somehow be excluded. This would assure 100 main wiki edits which is more than enough for peope to learn the ropes and prove themselves.


 * Anyone who has any comments or suggestions is welcome to voice them. We appreciate all of your input. In fact, we thrive on it. 17:06, 7 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I agree with halving the requirements. It's long overdue. 00:48, 8 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I also agree. Count me in. --Dany36 17:01, 8 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I think the new conditions are fair enough, so I'm all for it. 21:51, 8 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Instead of introducing a 'confirmed' right, I would like it to be shortened to 1 week and 100 edits. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 00:50, 9 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Actually, I do agree with halving the requirements. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 22:06, 9 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I think the limitations are good as they are... I didn't notice my limitations until I had like 195 edits and been here for 29 days - That might just be me or whatever, but to the point: wasn't there a part of the login that autoconfirmed users automatically skip? I think one of the rights a so called "confirmed" user could/should have is skipping that thing (whatever it is). If this is the only right given to this new group of users, maybe the limit should be set at 25 go 30 edits and a week, how does that sound? -- 14:43, 11 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I found another good idea: 8 days and 70 edits. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 16:00, 11 June 2012 (EDT)


 * OK. I think the autoconfirm limit is good already. I just have to wait a while and make some edits, then - viola. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 16:05, 11 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Personally I'd have to say that 150 edits and anywhere from 3-4 weeks is a good confirmation level. I realize that it is quite annoying to have to deal with limitations, but if someone really wants to stick around this place, then they shouldn't be too much of a hindrance  22:05, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Alright, so we went with the 100 edits and 2 weeks as that is what most of us seemed to agree on. We also managed to implement an extension that makes user page edits "not count." If people really feel like 150 and 3 are better numbers, that's always open for discussion. 21:04, 29 June 2012 (EDT)

Instant Commons
I'm suggesting that Instant Commons be enabled for Zelda Wiki. Commons is a media respiratory of freely licensed images, icons, and SVG vector files. After InstantCommons is enabled, be sure to list Zelda Wiki at Sites using InstantCommons. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 01:42, 7 June 2012 (EDT)


 * We'll look into the matter. However, given that Zelda Wiki rarely uses images from the Commons, I don't see how this feature would be useful for us. 10:50, 9 June 2012 (EDT)


 * But we want to use images from Wikimedia Commons without the hassle of uploading them to Zelda Wiki. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 22:22, 9 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I like to think we've been doing fine with Commons images as is, but in any case, enabling this feature would require access to the wiki's configuration settings. We'll have to run it by the dude who owns the ZW server so we can gain access. But he seems to be kept pretty busy running Zelda Universe and with all this E3 business it might be a while before we're able to get a hold of him. We'll get back to you when we can. 07:45, 11 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I don't think anyone has uploaded anything from Commons in the past 6 months. If we see more files coming from Commons, we may consider enabling this. Otherwise, it is unnecessary. 07:51, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Tingle and CD-i enemies seperate from normal templates?
This isn't a big deal, but it's something that's been bothering me for a little while: should Tingle and CD-i enemies be listed on the normal enemy templates? I noticed if you look at Template:HumanEnemy that there's basically a swarth of oddly named * enemies in a big group that end up looking out of place amongst the others. These are all enemies from the CD-i games, which of course are not considered canon in the slightest, but they're included there all the same. It seems unusual to do this; it would be like including characters from these games on the Template:Characters list, for example, or including enemies and characters from the cartoons and comics on said lists (which are arguably MORE canon, sort of). I'm less bothered about the Tingle games, as they are at least created by Nintendo, but generally it just seems awkward to include non-canon material in these templates. I think what makes it especially odd is that we already have a template for CD-i enemies here, Template:Philips_CD-i_Games _Enemy so it seems unnecessary to include them in the other template as well as they're basically all humanoids of some sort anyway.

Also, the * listing by each of these enemies is quite vague and doesn't really alert users to their non-canonical status, rather it serves to simply draw attention to them instead, as if they're somehow special. I have no problem with the wiki covering CD-i stuff, I just feel a bit awkward whenever it's given the same level of precedence, or in this case, seemingly MORE precedence, or at least more visibility than the canonical material. Perhaps if people disagree with keeping them seperate, there could at least be a change to how they are listed, especially as most enemy templates now have seperate sections within? 15:30, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Well technically the Template:Philips_CD-i_Games _Enemy is just the bosses from the CD-i games. Also the Human Enemy template is only one of the templates that have the * enemies. In fact I believe ALL the templates have at least one * enemy in them. Anyway even thought the non-canon and ambiguous canon enemies are at the very least in their appropriate area's (i.e. Oyster being in the Aquatic Enemiest template and Malmord being in the Living Corpses and Disembodied Enemies template.) But thats just me and I thought I'd add my two cents in. --Heroofstuff 22:59, 13 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I agree with Fizzle on this one. Non-canon/ambiguous canon material should be treated separately from main Zelda titles when possible. What especially bothers me is that most of the enemies from TRR don't even have names, so we're filling our nav templates with fanon titles. We could easily create separate templates for the enemies from the Tingle series and the CD-i games. Also, we can easily move Template:Philips CD-i Games Enemy to a more appropriate name. 13:13, 14 June 2012 (EDT)


 * While I'm with Fizzle on seperating the enemies I'd like to know what our plans are for enemies that do NOT appear in games like the Goron Golem? Do we leave those in the templates or remove them since for all honesty they dont exist? --Shadow Reaper 23:44, 15 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Okay I just finished seperating Tingle's enemies but how do we want to seperate the CD-i enemies? --Shadow Reaper 05:14, 16 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I did not realize that the Tingle enemies do not have official names at all, is that true? That gives me even more incentive to move them to their own template. Which has now been done, anyway! I assume that aside from the bosses, regular enemy names are not known for most enemies in the game? I do actually own the first game but only a small number of enemies have been named so far, I believe. I ought to play it some more, I got stuck early on. Weird game.
 * Shadow Reaper, for beta enemies I think we can set up a specific beta enemy template for stuff like the Arwing, the Cannon Soldier, and any others, or possibly just a beta category where needed. There are not many of them, and while some of them like the Arwing are quite random and unusual, others are just enemies that simply failed to make the final cut and were still intended to be in the game at some point or other. I would suggest at this point that we add a small "Unused Enemy" category to the bottom of any templates that include these enemies.
 * As for the CD-i enemies, I don't think it would cause much harm to give them their own template away from the others, if people don't mind that too much. Perhaps there could be a template for each game, that way you can include normal and boss enemies on each one? How official are the names for some of these enemies, though? As far as I'm aware, most aren't named, but most are clearly based on enemies from the first two games. I assume the bosses are named, but most of the regular enemies don't seem to be, so maybe they don't need to be on a template yet. I wish there was a way for me to play the games, I am morbidly interested. Not enough to spend money on them though, haha. 09:08, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
 * There's full gameplay walk throughts on youtubue. Showsni and Halfblind gamer are you best bet. Also yeah as far as I can tell few enemies have in Tingle or CD-i games have offical name. However Gamespot has at least some of the ZA enemies and a few have in game names like the Klepies. I think strategy wiki has some of the Tingle enemies as well. --Shadow Reaper 17:07, 16 June 2012 (EDT)

Zelda's Adventure
I'd like to start adding the enemies from the enemies from ZA but have a couple of hangups before I start. As per the discussion above several enemies are exclusive to this game and therefore have no names and secondly the only way I can obtain the images is via screen caps from youtube which isn't very high def. So should I go ahead and do this or leave the enemy page alone? --Shadow Reaper 23:54, 15 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Hmmm...well, I was looking through this FAQ and they have a section for enemies (section L). Most of them seem familiar so they could probably go under "Non-canon Appearances" in their respective enemy articles. For the ZA-only enemies, we could just base their names from what that FAQ uses, just to have their attacks, weaknesses, and appearance documented somewhere on the wiki. Based on that, we will also probably need an Enemies in Zelda's Adventure article, too. --Dany36 00:32, 16 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Now by Enemies in Zelda's Adventure article, do you mean something like a gallery page or something? --Shadow Reaper 00:48, 16 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Something like this. If you're missing images for a particular image, replace it with File:No Image.png until we eventually upload a proper image. It would be nice to have some good quality images, but cropped youtube screencaps are better than nothing. 03:07, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Okay I can do that. That shouldn't be a problem. Thanks ^^ --Shadow Reaper 03:36, 16 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Are you sure that there is no way to obtain sprites of these enemies? If you look here... Enemies in Link: The Faces of Evil there is a whole set of sprites of all the enemies from that game. I would assume that Zelda's Adventure enemies can be ripped in a similar fashion. How this was done, I don't know, because I'm not aware of CD-i emulation or sprite ripping. I would suggest you maybe send a message to Herofstuff, who uploaded each of those images. Perhaps he can help. 09:15, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
 * I searched everywhere I could think of; Google image, yahoo image, Bing, photobucket, flickr, Deviantart, Sprite resourse, sprite database, even other Zelda site. There's nothin' on the web that are just the sprites, and to make matters worse every image has a background that makes transparenting difficult. But I did find some rather decent quality images so I could still add those after cropping them. But other will still need to be screen capped from youtube. Sorry Fizzle. --Shadow Reaper 19:23, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Hey, it's still better than nothing. Unfortunately, Fizzle, it seems Heroofstuff has left the wiki, so we can't expect much from that end. A while back though I looked into CD-i emulation out of curiosity. The Faces of Evil and Wand of Gamelon aren't much of a problem to run, but I haven't been able to get a working Zelda's Adventure copy. The only one that I could find apparently can't run on certain systems for "unknown reasons". There might not be a working ROM of Zelda's Adventure out there or an emulator that can run it.  19:59, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I found the sprites from the first two games on Spriter's Resource, so that's presumably where Heroofstuff got them, anyway. No Zelda's Adventure stuff there, presumably for the same reason. So yeah, using Youtube or screenshots unfortunately seems the best option. Interesting that those games can be run, however. I may check them out someday if I feel like torturing myself. Maybe they're not that bad! Ha. 16:03, 18 June 2012 (EDT)

The Legend of Zelda: Unnecessarily Long Titles
A lot of our articles have unnecessarily long and redundant titles. Bosses in The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, Characters in The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Dungeons in The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, Figurines in The Minish Cap, Gallery:Enemies in The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, Items in The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons and so on. Do we really need to mention "The Legend of Zelda"? Our readers probably know the full titles already, and repeating this filler over and over makes it a hassle to write the names of these articles. Of course, the pages about the games themselves should retain "The Legend of Zelda", but it seems unnecessary for other pages. 08:06, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * These long titles make linking to the pages (and searching for them) tedious. I'm all for it. As it stands, I think only our Trading Sequence pages do not use the full titles. "Ocarina of Time Trading Sequence" is much more simple and concise than "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Trading Sequence". I can't think of a reason why we shouldn't do this to the rest of our pages as well. 08:12, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I agree. The readers don't need a constant reminder that it's The Legend of Zelda and everyone would probably appreciate the shortened titles. 11:37, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Agreed for reasons already stated! --Dany36 13:16, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I do not remember hearing about any Zelda game with "Unnecessarily Long Titles" as a subtitles. Idiocracy aside, you got my support. Noble Wrot 15:14, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

Major and Minor Antagonists
The template for characters says Malladus and Demise are major antagonist, while Chancellor Cole and Ghirahim are minor antagonists. I think these should be switched. By definition (I read this in my dictionary) an antagonist is one who opposes with active resistance. Would it be active resistance if Demise and Malladus only "oppose" Link at the end of the game? Ghirahim and Chancellor Cole are the ones trying to wake Demise and Malladus, they are the ones trying to destroy Hyrule. Just because a character is fought last doesn't make him the major antagonist! --Person777 14:43, 20 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Arguably, Cole and Ghirahim are trying to free their masters so they can destroy Hyrule. Although the Ghirahim and Cole appear more often throughout the game, ultimately they're just serving a greater force. They aren't the real threat; Demise and Malladus are. Same goes for Skull Kid and Majora or Zant and Ganon. The thing is, what makes an antagonist "major" or "minor" is pretty subjective, so there's no black and white here. That being said, I think the template is fine as is. 15:34, 20 June 2012 (EDT)

Well, I get that but it's kind of a wierd definition of serving if Malladus eats Cole and uses his body or if Demise... well I don't even know what happened to Ghirahim. Either way what I'm saying is if Cole and Ghirahim had ceased to exist Malladus and Demise wouldn't have even have come back when they did. And I understand Zant and Ganondorf because Ganondorf was just working behind the scenes. He was the one who shrouded Hyrule in twilight. --Person777 13:28, 21 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I think the template is good as it is too. Ghirahim is nothing more than Demise's servant and when playing the game, I thought Ghirahim WAS Demise's sword (or at least the spirit living within) just like Fi was Link's. And though Cole isn't exactly under Malladus' control throughout the game and rather thinks he can control the demon and that Malladus would obey him and his orders. When seen in perspective like that, Cole is kind of stupid. If Cole actually was the major antagonist of the game, then I think there would be an epic boss fight in the end against him, but in the end, it's not Cole that Link faces. But what do I know? That Embrose Duet is killing me!!!! 15:44, 21 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I get what you're saying. The Template is good as is. And I feel for you, I couldn't do the Embrose Duet myself either. --Person777 20:10, 21 June 2012 (EDT)

Non-Canon Images in the Galleries
Recently me and Fizzle have been discussing this but what does everyone think of allowing non-canon images into the canon galleries? Some pages (mostly enemies) don't go by games only by description of the enemy. Not allowing new non-canon enemy info to really be added, because it doesn't bring anything new to the table. Leaving only the image gallery to place the images. However recently we've been seperating the canon and non-canon as much as possible (removing ambiguous and non-canon enemies from the enemy templates), so whats the communities opinion. Do we allow non-canon images into the enemy galleries or leave them seperate? --Shadow Reaper 03:53, 25 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I don't see a problem with having those images in galleries. What does bother me, though, is how the non-canon games are included in the infobox (e.g. Goriya, Keese, Peahat). It doesn't seem like the place to be mixing canon and non-canon. I was thinking we should rename the "other media" field to "non-canon appearances" so it can include the CD-i and Tingle games as well, and keep the "games" field for mainstream Zelda titles. 07:54, 25 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I had also already stated that I don't think it's much of a problem to have non-canon appearances of enemies in galleries. Anyway, I think what HK mentioned is a good idea. That would of course also include the comics, manga, and cartoon appearances. --Dany36 14:13, 25 June 2012 (EDT)

How about dividing the galleries by section? Canon in one and non-canon in another? -- 17:40, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
 * I can get started on reorganizing the info boxes (as many have seen creating article isn't my forte I've got the info just not the ability to get what in my head onto the page) :P as for K2L's idea I like it hows does every one else feel about a seperate gallery for Ambigous and non-canon images? --Shadow Reaper 20:27, 25 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Hey man, we all appreciate the effort. Practice makes perfect. Anyway, I like K2L's idea as well. 20:32, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Thanks Hylian King. Anywho I'll see what I can do (not sure if its the site or my computer but something isn't acting right). But I'll get right on it. :D --Shadow Reaper 20:37, 25 June 2012 (EDT)


 * My bad, I didn't know the idea of splitting the galleries into two had been brought up, but either way, I still think we should wait for more people to comment on this before doing it. I don't really like the idea of it (we usually place the non-canon stuff at the end of the galleries), but if the majority agrees, then...I guess there would be no other choice. :P --Dany36 21:37, 25 June 2012 (EDT)

I was away from the wiki for a few days so I couldn't chime in, but here's my take on it... It's probably best not to get into an argument about what is more or less canon, but I would put the CD-i games pretty much only one step away from fan-made media. Unlike other non-canon sources like the mangas, there is pretty much zero Nintendo involvement in them aside from the licensed names (on the other hand, the mangas appear to have Nintendo overseeing them a lot and there's lots of evidence to support this, and while that doesn't make them canon, it at least makes them recognized by Nintendo, hence the appearance in Hyrule Historia). As far as I'm aware they're not even "The Legend of Zelda" games. The phrase "The Legend of Zelda" was not used in their creation. They only got the license to use the names and likenesses of Link, Zelda and Ganon. That all said, they're obviously interesting curiosities, but I personally don't like mixing them up with everything that makes the series what it is.

I do quite like the idea of having a separate gallery for non-canon, if possible. If we take a look at the gallery for Gallery:Ganon, for example, the non-canon media is in a separate section. However, I personally would like to go one step further and make a distinction between things with the Original Nintendo Seal of Quality (like Smash Bros.) and stuff that's licensed to use the names but not "official". Does this idea make sense? I think it could be a good way of distinguishing between media that is recognized as relating to the series yet non-canon, and media that is simply not recognized at all. I would say for example, that the Smash Bros. games are massively relevant to the Zelda series, despite not being canon, while the CD-i games were never relevant to the series as a whole.

This also applies to artwork from guides. I've noticed there's a lot of artwork from the Million Publishing guide on many of the articles; I don't believe this guide was official and the art is pretty much redrawn sprites. Notice on the Goriya page how their depiction of the Goriya is a misinterpretation of how the sprite looks. What should we do about stuff like this? I would put it in the same category as the CD-i stuff.

Oh, on the infoboxes, I agree with Hylian King, but I would again go one step further and suggest three categories rather than just two, because while I don't consider the Smash Bros. and Tingle series as canon I also don't like lumping them in with the CD-i games and television series.

Gosh, apologies for the the wall of text there. 12:51, 27 June 2012 (EDT)


 * What you're asking complicates things, and I've always been a strong believer in keeping things simple. First of all, what would we name these two types of canon? It would have to be simple enough to use as a title on multiple pages, yet descriptive enough for people to know what we're talking about.
 * I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I really don't think it's necessary to be so specific about non-canon, which is honestly pretty low-priority. They way I see it (and I'm sure others to do too), it's "canon first, and then everything else." No matter its credibility compared to other material, if it's not canon, it's not canon. We do our job and cover non-canon too, but going further than that and trying to sort it all really seems like unnecessary effort. 13:32, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
 * PS: As for the Million stuff, we could just get rid of it entirely. It doesn't add much to the wiki.
 * Fair enough. I was having trouble thinking up names for the different types of media anyway, just throwing the idea out there. I still think it's worth considering, but it is a bit awkward to implement without me thinking on it a bit further. I guess best to stick to canon and non-canon for now, at least until or if we can think of something better, haha. I'm still not sure about lumping the Smash Bros. and Tingle games alongside everything else in the infoboxes, however. Something bugs me about that, but it's not a huge deal I suppose. I do think that ideally there should be some way of putting non-canon images in a separate gallery however, because at the moment they're all ordered nicely by date except for ALL the non-canon stuff which just comes in a lump at the end of every gallery and is a bit ugly.
 * Ideally, it would be nice to have a little non-canon gallery that appears as a drop down like the Navi/Tatl/Fi comments that appear on some pages. Would that be possible to implement? That way, you could have a regular gallery then a non-canon gallery sitting underneath invisible until you reveal it. It would both separate a gallery into two sections, and yet not take up much extra space. Is this possible to do? 16:23, 27 June 2012 (EDT)

Manual Comments
I put together a little something on my Sandbox that I think might be a good thing to implement. At the moment on the wiki we've got the Navi template alongside Tatl and Fi ones. I believe we also have similar templates for Tingle and the trophies you can obtain. So I figured why not have some for the manuals? I threw together some ones based on the Navi template on my Sandbox, so let me know what you guys think. If people like the idea I'm more than happy to go ahead and write them all up for various monsters and whatnot, but I am pretty inexperienced in using templates, so any advice for adjustments or anything would be welcome. 16:31, 27 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I love it! Not so sure about your choice of colors but that's a minor detail. :P
 * You can learn a lot from the MediaWiki manual or from checking out the code of some of the wiki's other templates (that's how I did it). But yeah, if ever you need help making the actual template, we're definitely here for you. It's not a difficult template to make, in any case. The idea would be to have one parameter for the game, which determines which logo and title shows up (you'll be using Template:Logo and Template:Zelda for that), and another for, obviously, the comment itself. 18:06, 27 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Glad it's good so far! What would you suggest for the coloring? I went with a dark gold (the same used for the manual color) for TLoZ, a dark green (Japanese box and manual) for ALttP and a lighter gold for Zelda II. I'm not sure about Zelda II but I would probably go for a lighter gold and green for the other two since the colors are a bit dull at the moment, as for Zelda II, I don't want to do blue because Navi and Fi use those already. Perhaps silver, like the sword logo I've seen used? Hm. Let me know what you'd suggest, guys. I'm sticking on green though! It's the color I most associate with ALttP aside from gold. 20:58, 27 June 2012 (EDT)

Button template
One thing I've noticed that Super Mario Wiki has, is a buttons template; smw:Template:Button, how would it be if ZW had something similar? I think it'd make more sense than just write A-button or Z-button. 05:44, 29 June 2012 (EDT)


 * This has actually been discussed before. We like the idea, but it looks like none of us have been able to follow-through on actually implementing it across the wiki. We do have some stuff like that here and there, like the Jump Attack page. We also have a template for the Gamecube buttons: Template:GC. 07:52, 29 June 2012 (EDT)

Enemies and traps in dungeon articles
Recently I did some changes to how we list enemies and traps in dungeon articles. I first started doing that when I worked on the Chambers of Insight article, and wanted to know if you guys think this is something we should implement across the dungeon articles or not. I did it for the Forest Temple in ST article, and, well, it works for sprites, but not so much for renders, so I turned the enemy listing in the OoT temple into a gallery. I'm not sure if we should treat sprites and renders different (I kind of like the look of the table for sprites), or if we should turn both sprite and render enemy listings into galleries...IF this is implemented at all.

What do you guys think? Necessary? Not particularly helpful? Please comment! --Dany36 23:47, 29 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I really like the look as tables for sprites, and the gallery for renders, so I think we should have it as you've suggested. 00:38, 30 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I think it looks great as well. 07:54, 30 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I should chime in that the Spirit Tracks ones are technically renders as well, aren't they? The enemies are 3D models, I believe. But they do look a bit better at a smaller scale, of course. Personally I prefer the Gallery listing too for renders, but I wouldn't mind it for sprites either if the quality of the sprites is good enough (ie: x2 or x3 pngs rather than x1 gifs).
 * I quite like the idea and I think it's better than the boring list we have on most dungeons at the moment, but my only concern would be the amount of effort that needs to be put into it. If a sprite needs updating to a new one, that's a LOT of tables to change. Could get awkward? If the sprites are .pngs it's not an issue since they can be updated, but most of the gifs we're using are way too small and are rendered oddly and need replacing. I think MOST enemy images are pngs now, though.
 * Also, small nitpick point but I'd recommend against putting stuff like "falling ceiling" on there. Sure, it's a trap, but it's a one-off room thing and it's on the same sort of level as putting "lava" down. It's more of an environmental hazard than a specific trap like a Blade Trap. Hard to explain the difference, but I generally say if it's listed alongside enemies or given a name with a capital letter then it's a Trap trap, otherwise it's just an environmental hazard like water or lava and it's probably best not to list EVERYTHING like that cos it could get a little crazy. I'm still not sure we really need a page for "floor spikes"... that's another issue though, don't mind me. TLDR: I'm pretty much in favor, I think. 22:17, 30 June 2012 (EDT)

I like this idea for many reasons. These reasons include its astheticly pleasing, its organized, and it gives the reader an idea of what to expect in the dungeon in both difficulty and theme. I support this fully, but the problem is we would need 3d renderings of every single enemy from each individual game that they appear in, including the 3D games. XXSuperXXNintendoXx 22:36, 30 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I might also think that because issues happend to 3d renderings if they don't export them right and errors occur. Although they may appear invisible of enemies from all zelda 3d games.--Brandondorf9999 13:52, 5 July 2012 (EDT)

This seems to be working perfectly, and I suggest that we expand this idea to non-dungeons as well such as Faron Woods, Death Mountain, Hyrule and Termina Field, Gerudo Desert and more. Thoughts?XXSuperXXNintendoXx 20:56, 16 July 2012 (EDT)


 * I like that idea. We often fail to mention the enemies in overworld areas but they're just as important as the ones in dungeons! 08:50, 17 July 2012 (EDT)


 * I agree, however...how will we separate the galleries? For example, Hyrule Field. Will we have...

''

?? If so...this could be a problem with how we're currently handling 2D Enemy listings and 3D Enemy listings... --Dany36 13:16, 17 July 2012 (EDT)

Hyrule Field is a tricky case, couldn't we jsut have multiple galleries? and tables? XXSuperXXNintendoXx 17:33, 17 July 2012 (EDT)


 * Could run into issues, a lot of games have overworld areas that are a LOT less vague than dungeons, particularly the first three games, and unlike dungeons many games share locations, as mentioned. It's doable but it might not be as easy or look as nice. Splitting by game is a good start, as long as it doesn't take up too much space. 18:31, 17 July 2012 (EDT)

I am working on a reorganization of the TP's Hyrule Field in my Sandbox, I could add them there. I think WW, PH, and SS locations will work fine. XXSuperXXNintendoXx 20:26, 17 July 2012 (EDT)

I just thought I'd pitch in here. This seems like a great idea and I think we should definitely go forth with it. My only concern is how we will go about locations such as Kakariko Village. It would be odd having an entire gallery containing only one or two enemies. Also, are we going to include Gold Skulltulas, because they are technically enemies (and by that, I am referring to locations where Gold Skulltulas are the only enemies to appear, such as Goron City or Zora's Domain). The same goes for locations that solely contain Imp Poes. 17:09, 18 July 2012 (EDT)
 * Good point. I'm not entirely sure of the answer. Technically, even the chickens can be enemies. Kakariko Village already has Soldiers and Rats in A Link to the Past, however, and numerous others in FSA. I don't know about places that ONLY contain one enemy... could be a bit pointless. It's not just limited to Imp Poes and Gold Skulltulas either, I can already think of some other locations that only contain one enemy, like some towns in Zelda II. Hm. 08:34, 19 July 2012 (EDT)

suggestion: no unplayed game content shown in articles; user specific
I keep running into a troublesome annoyance. I am very curious to know everything about the zelda universe. I am fascinated by all that I read, but I keep ending up reading about things from certain zelda games I am playing for the first time or have never played that I didn't know before. This may not seem like a big deal, but I am very passionate about the zelda games and I want to learn this stuff the way it was intended... from the game itself. If you're wondering what I am talking about I'll give an example. I just read the entire article on Rupees and I came across information about rupoors that I did not know existed in Skyward Sword or at all for that matter. I would have loved to discover this in the game itself instead of here, because that would have been much more exciting. Again I know this sounds like no big deal and that I'm just complaining, but I'm just asking if something can be done to fix this minor(major to me) problem. In fact I have a solution.

Any information about a specific game can be noted as such in the editor. The note will point to a specific cluster of information and deem it to "pertain to the legend of zelda (X)". Before the article is loaded, the viewer's specific settings will be taken into account. These settings will hold information about what games the User has played all the way through or more specifically, what games the User wishes to read information about. The page will find out what the User doesn't want to know and will not display such information. Using my example above, I would have went into my account settings and "unchecked" "Skyward Sword" indicating it as a game I have not yet finished and thus, the unwanted information of the existence of rupoors does not appear.

BTW: if I put this discussion in the wrong place, please note that I am new and am not yet fully accustomed to the workings of this website and kindly redirect me to where you believe I should have put it.

My discussion was moved here so forget my "BTW" above.

PianoMastR64 00:24, 21 July 2012 (EDT)


 * OK, so I already found a flaw. If you have it set so no skyward sword info shows up and you go to the rupees page and see nothing on rupoors, you will feel inclined to add it in. It will show up in the editor with whatever is needed to hide it for you and get annoyed because it's already there. Then again, you should be smart enough to know you have info about that game hidden and know to wait until you feel that you can unhide said info before adding your own about it. Ok so the suspected flaw has been resolved. Ill leave this edit here. I would be glad to hear of anymore flaws and whether or not this is a good idea.


 * PianoMastR64 01:59, 21 July 2012 (EDT)

Million Publishing guide artwork?
I've noticed there are a number of galleries with artwork from the Japanese Million Publishing guide for the original Zelda game. Here are some examples, just so people know what I'm talking about, File:GanonLoZArt.png, File:RedMoblinLoZArt.png, File:RedGoriyaLoZArt.png. As you can see, they're not particularly good pieces of art, and in the case of some like the Goriya one, they're pretty much just artistic interpretations of the sprites, and often misinterpretations. They're on many pages but they are not official by any means (the Million Publishing guide was third party, there were other guides that actually used official art or variations of it), and they mostly just seem like clutter to me. Certainly, if people want to check out the art it's pretty easy to find, but I don't see the need to have it clogging up the wiki when it wasn't officially licensed in any way. Thoughts? 20:01, 24 July 2012 (EDT)


 * Woops, sorry Fizzle. Thought for sure I had commented on this one.
 * If the guide isn't an officially licensed product then it's no better than fan art. I say we could do away with it entirely. An alternative would be to make a page for the guide, slap on the non-canon notice, and stick all the art there. 12:58, 13 August 2012 (EDT)


 * There's a lot of it, mind you, particularly in Link and Zelda's galleries. I guess some of it still interesting, from an archival point of view, so I like your idea. I've been toying with the idea of a non-canon section for galleries that appears as a dropdown, too. I put together a basic one on my sandbox a little while back but it was quick and lazy. You can check my previous version of my sandbox to see what I mean, though. I think your idea is a good one, seems organized, and I think pages for different guides might be a good thing to have on the wiki, provided we can get enough information on individual ones. 17:30, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

Naming Pages
A while back on the Skype chat, there seems to have been a discrepancy issue with naming certain pages and which one to use in instances where things bore more than one name. The page in question was Kargarok and how that specific name was a failure on the part of the translators, as the enemy was named after Roc, a mythical creature and the initial design of said creature was based on the Helmaroc King. Everybody's reaction was to move the page to Kargaroc, as that name was more "accurate". However, I find that entirely subjective (though I agree with it). The problem to moving the page based on what people deem "accurate", however, is that it cannot be universally applied. Take Dinolfos, for instance. It has three names, and yet none of them prove to be more accurate than the other. There are (as I see it) two other solutions: Firstly, we could name pages by what they were originally called, or by what they were called latest. This shows neutrality. Secondly, we could instead name them by factoring the quantity of the names. In this scenario, an enemy is referred to as X in one game. The same enemy is referred to as Y in two games. Thus, the name Y would be used. If the differing names shared an equal amount of appearances, either part of solution one could be used to establish a dominant name in neutral passages (that is, the general article would refer to it by one name, unless it was speaking of the enemy in a specific game). Personally, I like solution one, preferably naming enemies by their first appearance. Though this could have some drawbacks, as some enemies may no longer use their original name (like Barba/Volvagia), thus causing potential confusion for readers, but what do you guys think? 06:26, 31 July 2012 (EDT)


 * I think I would go more for solution 2. If they share the equal amount of appearances, here are some options to take care of that situation.


 * Non- and ambiguously canonical content could make the difference by...
 * ...Down-prioritizing them. If either of the competing amounts of appearances contains more or less non- or ambiguously canonical appearances of the name than its competitor(s), the option represented by the amount with the least of these should thrive. Perhaps ambiguously canonical appearances should be given more weight than non-canonical ones?
 * ...Up-prioritizing them. If none of the eventual ambiguously and non-canonical appearances already aren't included in the competing amounts, and the inclusion of ambiguously and/or non-canonical appearances would make a difference, it should make a difference. Again: perhaps ambiguously canonical appearances should be given more weight than non-canonical ones?
 * Down-prioritize handheld titles. I'm not really for this option, as it indicates that handheld titles are less canonical to the main series than home console titles, which is a common mistake in the gaming society.
 * Splitting. If the appearances the different options are different enough beyond only a small difference in how the name is spelled, splitting the article wouldn't be that unreasonable.
 * Deside on where people would be looking for it. When people look for Kargarok, would they type "Kargaroc" or "Kargarok"? It's Tingle's comment and the figurine in TWW that tells us that it's "Kargaroc", and TP's official website that tells us it's "Kargarok". And when there is something in-game that tells you it's either one contra a 2006 website that tells you it's the other one, I'll have to go with In-game data. Of course, when speaking about the TP enemy, the link should display "Kargarok".
 * Which one is the most estalished?
 * And btw, the fact that I redirected it to itself may indicate that there needed to be a redirect there... 07:40, 31 July 2012 (EDT)


 * I thought we used solution one in most instances? Meaning we go with the name that is most recent. The only issue that comes up is re-releases, such as Ocarina of Time 3D. I would personally still count that as a "latest" appearance, as Nintendo are more than willing to correct things in newer translations. Despite this, I think names that appear in-game (or in manuals, in some cases) should have priority over names that appear on websites or in guides (ESPECIALLY Prima Guides... so Dynalfos would be out... unless it was called that in the Nintendo guide too). This seems logical to me, because while players have access to in-game names and manuals when they purchase the game, guides and magazines and websites are secondary material, and in the case of some of the guides, slightly dubious in accuracy.
 * Naming enemies by their FIRST appearance is entirely illogical to me. That would mean moving Moblin to Molblin, and Zora to Zola. We should go by latest in-game names first (so Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time 3D names will take priority, for example) then go back through the games in order, before then taking into account guides, internet sites, etc.
 * So basically, the latest in-game (or manual) names come first in all instances I can think of. Everything else is secondary. I think this is probably the best rule to go with. Incidentally, this would also solve the Kargarok/roc issue. It would be moved to Kargaroc. 20:34, 2 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Yeah, that sounds good. That would also mean moving Dinolfos to Dinofols, which is unfortunate because "Dinolfos" makes more sense if you look at the names Lizalfos, Aeralfos, Stalfos, etc. We could make an exception because it might be a typo... Just a thought.
 * On a side note, you'd think "Dinalfos" (the term zelda.com uses) would be the best name for them. It would certainly be the closest to the Japanese name... Hopefully they'll appear in later titles with that name! 21:30, 2 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Aren't they called Dinolfos in OoT3D? Latest release. Solves that issue! Besides, it's just a mistake/typo, like with Wizrobe instead of Wizzrobe, and failing to translate Hiploop as Helmasaur. Though, since it was more of a insect in that game, could of been intentional. Majora's Mask had a fairly rushed development though so I would class those as mistakes. They also named "Peahat" as "Pea Hat". They might of even translated Eyegore as Rocklops had they spent more time on it... but Minish Cap also stuck with Eyegore, so maybe not. 21:58, 2 August 2012 (EDT)

Zelda Manuals
I was thinking that Zelda Wiki should have scans of Zelda manuals, especially as the older manuals have heaps of information. But the ZW Community will have to take the scans themselves as I don't think we can take scans from random sites. I would do this myself, but I don't have all the Zelda Games, so I'm turning to the community for help. What do you think, are you guys in?


 * I'm leaning towards no, scanning the manuals in is basically just offering them online for free. I'm not sure this is moral, let alone legal, and we could just as easily add the information from the manual to our articles and reference the manual. 14:26, 4 August 2012 (EDT)

Korea-related items
I am requesting the addition of Korea as one of the recognized release regions, as well as the addition of the Game Rating Board (GRB) as a video game rating system. Three Zelda games have already been released in Korea, with Ocarina of Time 3D on the way in September 27. Wwtoonlinkfan 00:21, 31 August 2012 (EDT)


 * I went ahead and added South Korea to Template:Release and the "Ratings" field of Template:Game. Happy editing! 08:20, 31 August 2012 (EDT)

Shops
My friend asked me if I could create a page that lists the stores/shops in Twilight Princess. I'm just a lowly editor, who also has no idea how to create pages, so I came crawling to Hyrule Castle to ask if any body else thinks that's a good (or not completely pointless) idea. I may also be overlooking a page already in existence... --Person777 18:56, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Perhaps the Shop page should be arranged by game and list all of the shops that are found in said game? --Dany36 20:56, 17 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Exactly. I had no notice of that pages existence. Either way, they should probably be organized, and maybe given a short summary of what they sell --Person777 19:41, 18 September 2012 (EDT)
 * A while ago Dannyboy proposed that the Shop article be made into an actual article similar to Dungeon. That hasn't really happened yet, though. 20:41, 18 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Oh yeah, about that... I started to make the article in my sandbox, but never really finished it :P. If anybody else feels like taking up the task, they're more than welcome. 12:31, 19 September 2012 (EDT)
 * I went ahead and merged Danny's article with the pre-existing list. Please improve the Shop article as you see fit. A few images wouldn't hurt. 12:15, 20 September 2012 (EDT)

Extending Reference Templates
I recently added a reference to the Tomahawk page citing the Game & Watch manual. Following the standard manual citation guidelines, the reference refers to the game as notZelda rather than by its title. I assume the wiki does not recognise Game & Watch Zelda as a game, rather than me using the wrong title (if it is the latter, please feel free to correct and possibly provide a list of recognised titles in the referencing guidelines). I totally get why this is, and perhaps this particular reference could be removed (I figure too many references is a margin better than too few), but I can see potentially necessary references from manuals outside the canonical 16 games being problematic. I am unsure whether the template should be modified to accept games like Game and Watch, or if this reference should be modified to reference a non-manual book, but clarification in the referencing guidelines and someone fixing this particular instance would both be appreciated. - Agahnim&#39;s Shadow 01:54, 24 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Ah, sorry about that, it should be fixed now. I forgot to allow games outside the "Zelda list" (a list of usable game names can be found here). Games on the list will automatically be linked to the appropriate articles. If you want non-Zelda games to be linked to an article, you'll have to do that manually. Sorry for any inconvenience. 11:14, 24 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Thanks, that's all working fine now. Agahnim&#39;s Shadow 12:06, 24 September 2012 (EDT)

Canon Issue Regarding the SS Manga
I originally posted this on the talk page of a section of the Help Guide. (Hopefully this is the correct place for what I had to say. I'm a new member, and I'm unfamiliar with how things work around here.) My original post is as follows: As I was reading the October 2012 (Vol. 283) issue of famed magazine Nintendo Power, I noticed that in an article on Hyrule Historia'', Dark Horse Books editor Patrick Thorpe was quoted as saying, "[...]Newer fans are going to be excited about the large Skyward Sword section and the manga by Akira Himekawa, which contains some really important continuity that impacts the entire series." His statement about the manga makes me believe that said manga, or at least parts of it, should be considered canon or semi-canon. Granted, this hinges on whether or not one believes that his word should carry the same weight as that of a series developer. As the leader of the localization, though, his statement certainly demands some attention, and should, in my opinion, be at the very least recognized by the staff of this wiki. Whether or not it makes the manga in question a viable part of the official timeline should be your decision. Thank you for your time!'' Please let me know if this is considered unnecessary reposting or spamming. Linebeck IV 22:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Posted my reply on that page. Sorry for the late response. 00:00, 2 December 2012 (UTC)


 * No problem. I've now posted there as well. Linebeck IV 13:15, 2 December 2012 (UTC)