Talk:Ganon


 * Archive 1

Boss strategies
This page should indeed include some description of each time Ganon has shown up in the series, but I think that a) he should get a proper boss strategy for each time in the series he's fought, just like other bosses, and b) these shouldn't clutter up the main article. I propose the creation of either short separate articles for at least some of Ganon's boss fights, or possibly one "Ganon/Strategies" companion article that goes through them all. He's a recurring boss, so this is information we should have somewhere, and a number of his appearances on this page have only a token mention of how they work as far as the actual fighting is concerned. There's no description of how the Oracle Series Ganon fight works, for instance. Does either of these proposals sound good? --Osteoderm Jacket 06:41, 25 July 2012 (EDT)
 * I like the one where we separate the Boss Fight information from the rest of it, if we're talking about splitting the article. Making a lot of separate articles doesn't seem necessary. --Xizor 08:07, 25 July 2012 (EDT)
 * I agree, putting all of the strategies on a separate subpage (Ganon/Strategies [Strategy?]) sounds good to me! That way, all of his biography stuff will be in the main page, and the boss stuff somewhere else. Nice suggestion! --Dany36 11:54, 25 July 2012 (EDT)
 * Not a bad idea, yeah. I think mention of his abilities and general behavior can still remain on this page, of course. But in-depth information about each fight probably isn't really suitable for an already gigantic page. 17:54, 25 July 2012 (EDT)
 * Yeah, that's reasonable. By all means let's still talk about his abilities in general on this page (teleporting, transformation, fireballs and other magical projectiles, nigh invulnerability). I just think that since we go into detail about how to fight other bosses, we should have a page like that for Ganon. And yes, I was leaning more toward the "strategies" subpage idea myself. --Osteoderm Jacket 18:22, 25 July 2012 (EDT)

Partner comments.
Considering Ganon(dorf) is an enemy, he should have the same "Navi's Comments" window on the page somewhere, like the Keese article. Anyone agree? Dekler 22:48, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Japanese Names
I was doing some research on this but.. since I don't know Japanese I'd like your help with this one: の盗賊王 - king of thieves, which appears in OoT. How do you romanize this? It would be nice if we included all the titles that has been given in the games. Zeldafan1982 13:18, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it would be Dōzoku-nō. -- Snorlax Monster  15:04, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


 * You're missing the entire quote, it's ゲルドの盗賊王, Gerudo no Tōzoku-ō, basically "King of the Gerudo Thieves" (as in the English text) or "Thief King of the Gerudo". 16:33, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the romanization. I omitted "Gerudo" because I saw a quote translated as "Gerudo King of Thieves" by jacensolo06 and NOA and thought that it was redundant (since we know that he is a Gerudo) but I guess it can be considered part of its title. I checked again, and there are three instances of ゲルドの盗賊王 in OoT, all translated like that. There is one instance where he is called "King of the Gerudo Thieves" by "Aveil" (her OoT counterpart). Zeldafan1982 19:45, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Four Swords Adventures
Since the Ganon is a different Ganon (and the only different Ganon), shouldn't he have a separate article? Currently there isn't enough info about FSA Ganon to justify a split, and having not played the game I can't help, but I think it would be a good idea to expand the section and split the separate characters. -- Snorlax Monster  10:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's just like Link and Zelda, it always features a different incarnation. You only have to add more info about his reincarnation, also more about his actions before facing the hero.--Prince Ludwig 10:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm in favour of giving major Links their own articles (e.g. Hero of Time, although it got deleted), and Tetra has her own article too. The point is that ALL appearances of Ganon except FSA are the same Ganon (as per HH), so I think he deserves his own article. -- Snorlax Monster  10:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out the Hyrule in ST doesn't have its own article even though it's a different Hyrule from all the other ones. We discussed splitting it at length (see here) and eventually decided against it.
 * In any case, the FSA section is awfully short at the moment. I couldn't vote for a split unless someone felt confident they could flesh out the content significantly.
 * For the record, I'm down to put the Hero of Time article back up as soon as we finish our little discussion on what to do with the non-canon appearances! :P 10:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think New Hyrule should be on the same page as Hyrule either, as it is a different continent, but I'm not going to argue that here (and it was decided by popular vote rather than consensus, which while more likely to result in a definitive answer is less effective in determining the best option). I agree, at the moment there is too little information for a split, but I was hoping someone could expand it so that one would be more feasible. -- Snorlax Monster  11:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Hold it, why should the Hero of Time get an article of it's own? What makes him so special? There are other "Hero of" titles in the games too you know. Unless it's just an article about the title, rather than the person.
 * Frankly, the idea of splitting the Link, Zelda and Ganon pages into individuals sounds like a recipe for disaster. Nevermind the fact that Hyrule Historia does NOT pretend to be the be-all and end-all of canon, but having all the information in one place just allows for consistency. They're all linked directly to each other. Sure, Ganon in FSA is a reincarnation but he looks and acts and is basically the same darn guy, so splitting them just seems needless. Same for Link and Zelda.
 * Listen, I'm probably one of the biggest "splittists" on the wiki but even this suggestion makes me come out in a rash. We should do it with all of them or none at all, and the idea of doing it with all of them and making it work... I have no idea. I really don't think it's a good idea. 12:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * FSA Ganon may be a different one, but he shares similarities in terms of personality with his predecessor and he is also "connected" to him (Demise's hatred + the fact that he is a reincarnation of OoT Ganon). Also, since he has appeared in only one game I don't think that he is that important to give him a separate article, because by that logic every Link and Zelda should have their own too. Zeldafan1982 19:30, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hero of Time had his own article for a period of time due to appearing in three separate games; the article was really only removed due to the Adult OoT section being quite short. The Hero of Time already has two articles apart from Link anyway (Young Link and Hero's Spirit). The user who made it also suggested giving the Hero of Winds his own article due to appearing in multiple games as well, but he didn't already have his own article(s) so there was less push/need for it so it never came about.
 * I don't really understand your point about HH. Anything it says is just as canon as what the games say.
 * FSA Ganon is fundamentally different though, in that he has a different origin story: usual Ganondorf was born as the king of the Gerudo and became the Demon King Ganon when he obtained the Triforce of Power; FSA Ganondorf became Demon King Ganon when he claimed the Trident. The reason I'm suggesting he be split is the same as the Hero of Time, but in reverse: the Hero of Time is a single Link who appeared in 3 different Zelda games and is key to the timeline split; usual Ganon is in 10 (13 if you count BS games and Map 1 and 2 as separate games, which you should), so he deserves his own article too. The point is moreso that FSA Ganon needs his own article in order to give usual Ganon his own article. -- Snorlax Monster  06:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think given that we have a Hero's Spirit and Young Link articles it's probably a bit unnecessary to have a Hero of Time article unless it just focuses on the legend, but that's just me. Same with the other "Heros of".
 * About HH, it does not claim infinite canon, and I believe it states on a couple of occasions that things are somewhat "subject to change" and that a lot of it is still left open to interpretation. The English version has a few minor translation issues as well which can be chalked up to it being effectively a "third party" translation. While we take the book as canon, and it's timeline as canon, we don't need to apply EVERYTHING the book states into every page. In this instance, I think splitting them is entirely unnecessary because they are just far too similar and interconnected to be worth it.
 * FSA Ganon is still stated to be the "ancient demon reborn" and he is, for all intents and purposes, exactly the same Ganon as in other games, just born again. Which, given that Ganon tends to die and get resurrected a lot anyway, is fairly common. I mean, you could argue that Ganon in the Oracle games is not the same Ganon in A Link to the Past, because the resurrection failed and Ganon was only brought back as a mindless beast. And as for the Ganon in the first Zelda game, we don't know how he was brought back to life. But for all intents and purposes they really are pretty much identical. I mean, due to the split, Ganon already has three different origin stories. I don't think a fourth is particularly different, even if it's technically a different "person" (although, like Link, he's basically the same). 10:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Non Canonical Appearences
Anyone think this article could use some CD-i images of Ganon or some from the old TV show? Just a brief article on his other appearances--Smighty 10:16, 23 April 2013 (UTC)..
 * There's an entire article on his other appearances. -- Snorlax Monster  11:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks. Nevermind.. :P --Smighty 11:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

TRYING to edit
I have a voice actor list but cannot display it! HELP!--Zhane Masaki (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Improper Naming or New Wiki Page?
It might not be much, but I do want to point it out anyways. Even though Ganon and Ganondorf are the same being, the former being his beast form while the latter being his human form, do they deserve their own article? If not, shouldn't this page be titled Ganondorf instead? I know it does not have much REAL value to do so, but we can see that Ganondorf is the first reincarnation of Demise and that Ganon is a different form of Ganondorf caused by a transformation. Doesn't that mean that it is more accurate to refer to this page as Ganondorf or to create a separate page for him? A more in depth reasoning for this is:

1. The Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time is the first reincarnation of Demise.

2. We see, at the end of Ocarina of Time, that the form of Ganon was caused by the Triforce, and is not a natural form of Ganondorf.

3. In A Link to the Past Ganondorf was transformed into Ganon by entering the Dark World, just as Link turned into a rabbit. Again, Ganon is not a natural form of Ganondorf. Every reincarnation of Ganon in the Downfall timeline then is explained as he was transformed into Ganon in the first game of this timeline.

4. In Twilight Princess (child timeline) it shows Ganondorf (in the form of twilight) come together, and while he is still all black (like the twilight) he transforms into Ganon, implying that this transformation is caused by the twilight powers Ganondorf has. This, once again, makes the form of Ganon a form he does not naturally have.

5. In Wind Waker (adult timeline) the shape of Ganon is never taken. The closest thing to Ganon in this game, even the timeline, is Puppet Ganon, which is different from Ganondorf.

Would it not be appropriate then to name this page Ganondorf and rewrite the parts that talk about the being as a whole (parts that talk about Ganondorf and Ganon where either name works) to fit Ganondorf instead? If not, then does Ganondorf deserve his own page? Or maybe I am just typing all of this when we will choose not to change anything. What do you think? Dark Mirror&#39;s Link (talk) 00:18, 1 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the article is fine as it stands - it is a featured article, after all.


 * Ganon and Ganondorf are sufficiently indistinct that they're better described together rather than separate. The way I see it, separate articles would either be repetitive, or would have many holes requiring too much back-and-forth reading between both articles.


 * As for the name, "Ganon" better encompasses both entities, even though he is not the original state as you mention. Ganondorf has sometimes been referred to as Ganon, but - as far as I know - Ganon has never been called Ganondorf. Ganon is also more prevalent in the series - he's appeared in more games. Lastly, Ganon is simply more practical as a page title:  is a more efficient link than.


 * I believe the article properly addresses the differences between the two. I don't believe any further change is needed. 01:32, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Reincarnation of the Demon King? Or Incarnation of Hatred?
Demise's soul was trapped within the Master Sword at the end of Skyward Sword, so how comes that Hyrule Historia says that Ganon is the reincarnation of the passed Demon King? His soul needs to be free for to reincarnate in the first place. Therefore it makes more sense, that Ganon is a incarnation from the collective hatred of the Demons and Demise. Thanatos-Zero (talk) 15:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that the MS seal broke at some point and Demise's hatred (HH: "Upon his termination, the Demon King’s hatred was absorbed and sealed in the Master Sword.") "corrupted" Ganondorf's soul. So I agree that Ganondorf is an incarnation of Demise's hatred. Regardless of Ganon being a reincarnation of Demise or an incarnation of his hatred though, shouldn't the MS seal break anyway? Zeldafan1982 (talk) 17:45, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you're making up completely baseless claims about how reincarnation works in this series. The official publications say Ganon is the reincarnation of Demise, end of.KrytenKoro (talk) 14:09, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Offical or not, I want it to have it clarified if this is a claim from the NoJ HH or the NoA HH. If it is the latter and the former doesn't say anthing of such, then we have to deal with a translation error. Thanatos-Zero (talk) 11:33, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure, the clarification should be cited -- pretty sure it's from an interview, though. As for a "translation error", it wouldn't be. The grammar in that passage you cited does not differentiate between singular and plural (Japanese rarely does), and it does not use any particles indicating that the subjects are in a list; in fact, because it's formatted as "subject x は...subject y は", the indication is that the speaker is restating and clarifying the subject of the sentence (i.e., indicating that his hatred is the curse of the demon tribe). I'm not sure why yamikawa chose to translate that line as a plural, but there's no solid basis for it and thus no reason to assume an error in the official translation.KrytenKoro (talk) 15:01, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No reason? Then why doesn't Demise say in the game: "I shall reincarnate in order to follow you in this bloodstained sea forever!", but instead he speaks of a incarnation of his hatred following them? So much called translations of offical work can be flawed as well, as they are made by humans. Thanatos-Zero (talk) 15:42, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Now Baton of the Wind gave me a good answer regarding my question.

Originally Posted by Hyrule Historia, Pg 76 しかし、終焉の者の消滅は、戦いの終わりではない. 女神の血と勇者の魂を憎む魔の呪いは、繰り返し争われる 輪廻の歴史始まりとなるのだった. However, at the end of the battle was not the eradication of [Shuuen no Mono]. The evil curse is the hatred for the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero, and the ever-repeated history of reincarnation of it was beginning.

I perceive this section to be talking about the reincarnation of the hatred itself, since right before this it talks about how the curse specifically is the hatred. Also note the word they use for reincarnation is the Buddhist term [輪廻]. Not really a very important note, just an interesting tidbit.


 * http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/zelda-theorizing/174001-so-the-hyrule-historia-says-that-ganon-is-the-reincarnation-of-the-shuuen-no-mono.html#post5456746 Thanatos-Zero (talk) 22:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure how, but Baton appears to have made a mistake, as "hatred" is a verb here, not a noun.
 * "His evil curse, which hates the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero, began a history of repeatedly contested reincarnations."
 * IIRC the translations say that what was sealed in the Master Sword was his hatred anyway -- so we have consistent usage of his "hatred" as referring to his remains, his dark essence. Especially since it's referring to Samsara, it's highly unlikely they're talking about his soul as an unchangeable, indestructible animating force within him -- instead, it is more likely a -style construct of his emotions and mental states, which fits perfectly with identifying his hatred and "true soul/essence" as synonymous. But that's still putting our own non-canonical interpretations of soul and reincarnation into play, so let's look at just the phrasing given in the canon sources: It's along the lines of "Demise wasn't destroyed. His hatred was reincarnated"...that heavily implies that what was left of Demise, his remains, his soul, was his hatred -- also perfectly compatible with this interpretation. IIRC the translations elsewhere say that what was sealed in the Master Sword was his hatred anyway -- so we have consistent usage of his "hatred" as referring to his remains, his dark essence.KrytenKoro (talk) 14:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The Baton of the Wind: ^ Good looking-out ;) ( TZ: Before you continue reading here, check the link above again, because he made a edit)
 * You know, in my earliest translation of that line I came up with something like "the curse hates the blood and the spirit, etc", and it didn't seem right to me. How can a curse hate? So, after I thought about it a little, I started to see it differently; using the word in a sense of "the act of hating" like "the curse is hating the blood and the spirit", but that didn't quite sound right either and sounded lazy. Its kind of the same thing, without necessarily being the same thing, to put it the way I did; as "hatred for."
 * But in layman's terms I do perceive it to be along the lines of "The evil curse is *to hate* the blood and the spirit", I just can't make it sound right in our language.
 * The line being referred to about the Master Sword is earlier on page 76

終焉の者と人間とのー騎打ちが展開. 激闘の末、リンクは終焉の者を撃破した. その存在は消滅し 、怨念はマス ターソードに封印された. 魔族の恐怖が、ついに地上から消えたのだ. The key on [Shuuen no Mono] expanded out. After a fierce battle, Link had defeated [Shuuen no Mono]. His presence was gone, and his hatred was sealed in the Master Sword. The feared Demon Race had disappeared from the Earth, at last.


 * I still don't think its a remnant of his soul or a synonym of that. And here's why:
 * In-game, Fi calls this his "remaining thoughts"....

Originally Posted by Fi   終焉の者の消滅を確認 残留する思念をマス ターソードへ吸収 ...封印完了...   The eradication of [Shuuen no Mono] is confirmed. His remaining thoughts are absorbed into the Master Sword ...sealed [away] completely...


 * And so, I still perceive this to be about the incarnation of his hatred alone, and not of any remnant of Demise himself including spirit.
 * Thoughts?


 * StinksAwakening: He probably doesn't have a soul. His "remaining thoughts" are the closest thing he has to such a thing.
 * Anyways, do you have a translation for Impa's lines? Specifically, the part where she says she will stay behind and watch over the Master Sword to prevent his "spirit" from reawakening.


 * The Baton of the Wind: Of that, in HH, it says:

Originally Posted by Hyrule Historia Pg 76 ファイとインパ Fai and Impa ファイも使命を終え、リンクとの契約は終了. マスターソードは台座に戻され、ファイとともに眠 りにつく. イ ンパは、終焉の者の思念の消滅を見届けるため、過去の時代で剣を守り続ける. Fai had finished her mission as well, whose contract with Link was finished. He returned the Master Sword to its pedestal, where Fai would go into slumber. Impa, having made sure of the extinction of [Shuuen no Mono], stayed in the era of the past to watch over the sword.


 * Not much, I know, but either way I don't think anything happened in that thousand years anyways. The hatred could have gotten free of the sword anytime before OoT's backstory, tbh.


 * EDIT: In-game, of this she says his "thoughts" are decaying in the sword.

Originally Posted by Impa そして終焉の者の思念が剣の中で朽ち行く今...   And [Shuuen no Mono]'s thoughts are to decay within the sword...


 * Big One: Well when Link wished away Demise in the present time, did this affect the part of him that was sealed inside the Master Sword as well? That's something to consider.

- Originally posted by the members of Zelda Universe. Brought here by Thanatos-Zero (talk) 06:51, 19 July 2014 (UTC)