User talk:Matt/Archive 1

Timeline Talk

 * This is the discussion I had with Magnus orion about the Zelda timeline. At first we greatly differed on opinions and would not accept each other's theory. But as we worked out the details we found that both of our timelines were plausible. We also worked each game arc's connection. I copied it here to keep a record and to organize the information after it. That way there would be a lot of edits by me on my talk page, not on Magnus orion's.--Matt 19:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Now I added the first part of our talk from the Zelda Timeline talk page.--Matt 20:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Use Logic People

Everyone should pay close attention to time line given by Czarbender above. Many theorist choose to place most of the Zelda games in the child line. But this makes no sense whatsoever. A Link to the Past refers to Ganon trapped in the Sacred Realm. By that fact alone, ALTTP cannot possibly be in the child line. It then follows that Link's Awakening, The Legend of Zelda, and The Adventure of Link are not in the child line either. To refuse these simple facts is to be incredibly naive. The timeline above needs revisions yes, but it has the right general idea.--Matt 00:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Many people fail to realize that the Wind Waker can take place after the Twilight Princess, and still be on a different timeline. It may be as simple as TP happens 100 years after OoT and TWW happens 1000 years after OoT. The order of the games is then OoT/TP/TWW regardless of which timeline the games are in. Those years are just examples, not the actual length of time between games.--Matt 00:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you (any Zelda fan) think of a way to say the TWW takes place longer after OoT than TP does, in a short simple sentence, and not reveal that they occur on two different time lines? The answer is TP takes place between the TWW and OoT. That's all Myamoto could say without giving away the split timeline.--Matt 00:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm naive for putting A link to the past in the child timeline, right? Because "A Link to the Past refers to Ganon trapped in the Sacred Realm." Guess what. At the end of FSA, guess where ganon went.

I apologize for any harshness, but I'm tired right now. In short your argument is false, (use logic people!) QED--Magnus orion 03:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I looked at czarbender's timeline, now and I would like to point something out. Among other flaws, it seems to suggest that FS and FSA take place on different timelines, which is sorta odd, considering the FSA backstory talks about the FS story, and practically overtly states them to be the same link and zelda. Also his placement of the Wind Waker is strange because the windwaker refrences points from Ocarina of time as the most recent ganon/link battle, but that timeline has many others in between. --Magnus orion 03:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I do apologize for the brutal, but necessary honesty. I did say that the Czarbender timeline needed revision, but it did have ALTTP, LA, OoA, OoS, LoZ, AoL, & TP in the proper timeline. FSA should be in the Adult line somewhere.--Matt 04:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The legend in the The Wind Waker refers to the Hero of Time. When Ganon was terrorizing Hyrule, the people prayed that the Hero of Time would again come and save them. This implies that they believed that whenever Hyrule is in danger, the Hero of Time would come and save them. The fact that the heroes are not all the same person is lost to legend. The phrase "lost to legend" is actually used in the TWW opening(referring to the details of the Kingdom of Hyrule). The Ganon in the child line was arrested then sent to the Twilight Realm. He did not get out until some time after Zant took over Hyrule Castle. The Triforce of Power then fails to save him and he succums to the wound that was ment to execute him in the first place. Without the aid of the Triforce, there is no coming back from an im paled heart. There is no way around that. He is not sent to the Sacred Realm. There is no Ganon revival game that would fit alone after TP. When ganon "dies" in the games he cannot automatically be sent to the Sacred Realm. The in-game text in the Ocarina of Time makes a strong point on that issue. Yes I know that FS is directly followed by FSA, that's the reason I said that the Czarbender timeline needed revision in the first place. --Matt 05:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thus enhancing my theory that thinking about the Zelda timeline will make your brain explode. Saibh 13:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That is quite possible. It is not far off from happening.--Matt 00:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I apologize for not being blunt on the issue of what I was talking about. I'm against attacking people in general for theories they have on anything. General insults such as naive and talking about how people are stupid because they don't agree with you. If you want to discuss TP's ending with me, use my Talk page, as TP's ending Makes little to no sense. We all understand that there are issues with the timeline. But asserting that your's is better than someone elses purely by speculation is just wrong. My point is that i was insulted that I was being called naive and evidenced a case where your argument was wrong. I am aware that my timeline has flaws (i could point them out to you if you like :P). I just think that in my mind, my way of ordering the games make them all fit cleanest for me. Once again, If you want to talk more about this, simply use my talk page. I'll be happy to debate. I find it quite enjoyable to find new evidence and see things from different persepctives. I like being proven wrong, as it provides me with info so that I may be right in the future. And yes, i did use logic to get to my timeline--Magnus orion 03:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Right, enough on that particular subject here. Okay, this next one I don't have much of a clue how to work out. The Wind Waker seems to make a direct reference to Majora's Mask in the story in the Tower of the Gods. However nearly every timeline puts MM with TP. This is definitely how it should be but TWW still makes reference to MM. Is it possible that the timeline split occurs after Majora's Mask instead of after Ocarina of Time? Maybe due to a side effect of all the time travel and in one line Link stays out of history's way and the other he stops Ganon's takeover of Hyrule. I really do not know here. This theory could be entirely wrong or not. Any ideas people?--Matt 03:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Once again, feel free to discuss anything with me on the timelines in my talk page (I mean it! XD). The story in the tower (the one you get with the tingle tuner, i assume is what you are talking about) is actually about Tingle, not Link. Also, Tingle apparently is stated as having the ability to transcend time and space, allowing him the show up in MM, TMC, TWW, FSA and other games. I forget where i saw this on the wiki, but I think it was on the Tingle article. --Magnus orion 03:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, I was not sure of the TWW reference to MM. Oh, the 5:12 4-18 entry was written in a logic-based, non-biased way. I had shown it to some of my friends that held your view. They admitted to being wrong rather than complain of being insulted when no insult was intended. I am merely presenting the facts as they are. But my father would never admit defeat so I can understand why you won't.--Matt 03:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Now that I think on it, I can't see any reason why FS and FSA couldn't be in the child line, the way the games are, it is entirely possible that they could be in either line. The Minish Cap would make a lot of sense where you have it. Since Vaati absorbs most of the Light Force, the knowledge of its existence is lost with time. That is a reasonable assumption. Perhaps, though you could explain exactly why you think that ALTTP, OoA/OoS, LA, LoZ, & AoL belong in the child line? By the way I think that you the order between those is right though. The Oracles definitely go between ALTTP and LA, no doubts there. All your ordering is great, but I don't understand why you have the games in those timelines. Could you explain?--Matt 03:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I just played ALTTP last week and part of FSA just ten minutes ago. After going through the Eastern Temple I got a strong feeling of déjà vu. The terrain, layout, and key locations in FSA are very close to that in ALTTP. That makes the placement for FSA just before ALTTP highly likely. It may be that ALTTP takes place only a few centuries after FSA. I am not sure if Ganon escaped from whatever realm he was sealed in prior to FSA and got into the Sacred Realm (again) after FSA, this time getting the whole Triforce but unable to escape. This certainly explains why Ganon has the cool trident in all of the proceding 2D games. This is just speculation. Any thoughts?--Matt 20:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * To answer both your questions, I still believe that Wind Waker goes right after OoT, as I see no evidence that it doesn't. It may be possible that this is not the case, but I just can't believe that the hero of time is assumed to be the same person everytime a boy named link shows up. As for the placement of FSA, which I never actullay played, I know that ganondorf apparently gets a trident in this game, and he turns into Pig Demon Ganon (my name for the blue ganon form), whose design is noticibly different than other ganon forms, but still remains consistent as more games in that timeline come out. ie. Ganon's form changed of OoT, but for FSA and the oracle games, which came out after OoT, the design remains the same as the aLttP. This is another reason I don't believe that the other arc is on the adult end, as TWW almost must be on that side and I don't believe that the Pig Demon could revert back to ganondorf. Also my timeline assumes that ganondorf/ganon can only be killed if he doesn't have the triforce with him (after events at the end of TWW), or is killed by silver arrows (not light arrows). It should be noted that since I don't see a reason why ganondorf loses the triforce in TP, I assume he doesn't and comes back to life some time after the master sword is removed (as it was returned to the pedastal) in time for his appearance in FSA. Since I never played FSA, from what I read ganon is not sealed at hte beginng of FSA, but your comment above seems to contradict that. Was he sealed at the begining of FSA, because if he was, than I have a theory which I think makes TP make more sense.--Magnus orion 21:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Very well, but there is still the matter of the entire Triforce being in Sacred Realm in ALTTP. Sure I always thought that the Triforce of power stayed with Ganondorf in TP. Although, the other two pieces just might have been in Link and Zelda the entire time. The Triforce is only reunited when the one who split it in the first place, Ganon, is defeated. I fairly confident that the there are only two possibilities for a timeline. Yours and mine. No others make sense. I can't see there being anything that will definitively say which one is right. It all hinges on the Hero of Time story and whether people mixed up the others or not. Did the general people of Hyrule come to know the full extent of Link's time travel in OoT, or did a hero in green clothes appear seemingly whenever Hyrule was in trouble and thought the the title Hero of Time meant that these heroes where the same one traveling in time -which of course was not true, but they may have thought it. Think of the legends in the real world. They become much more elaborate and exaggerated with time. Is it not possible for the people to believe they are protected by the Hero of Time?--Matt 21:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

On Ganon escaping before FSA, I meant anytime before FSA, be it TP or whatever.--Matt 21:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree. Both yours and mine are the only ones I know to be possible, and it may be possible for the people to beielve they have always been protected by the Hero. The way I see it, there are now three problem games that make the timeline difficult, particularly because of the specifics of the events taking place in them. These would be aLttP, with its very specific backstory that doesn't quite fit any game exactly, AoL, with its confusing backstory that can only be remedied by putting it after aLttP, which negates its supposed explanation for why all the princesses are named Zelda, and finally, our recent friend TP, with its apparently symbolic or metaphorical ending (no one knows what happened. We can only speculate. :S)

Also, just as a side note: The worst timeline I have come across is what some have dubbed the youtube timeline, since a video was made of it by gametrailers or somebody and became a popular timeline on youtube. Anyway, the youtube timeline has a little bit of both yours and mine, has a split timeline, and decides to use the oracle games to reconnect the timeline... How is that supposed to work?!?! People suddenly have memories from two lifetimes?!?!? Oh well, there are a lot of silly people out there are the internet. I think your timeline is interesting in that it puts several games before wind waker (if I understand it correctly). My only question is that in AoL, ganon is clearly stated to be dead, but you have him back alive as ganondorf in The WindWaker to be killed again. Could you explain?--Magnus orion 22:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, whenever you lose your last life in AoL, Ganon returns, game over. It is only a matter of time before he is revived. I see no evidence that Ganon loses the Triforce of power after LoZ. Somehow he comes back. His pig form body is destroyed of course, perhaps he fashions a new body, maybe from a stolen one, in the likeness of his beloved original. As long as he has the Triforce of power, he always seems to find some way back.--Matt 22:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

My timeline, as it stands, is on my userpage.--Matt 22:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that youtube timeline does sound rather silly.--Matt 22:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, but in the end of the first game, which goes before LoZ, when you kill ganon, a pile of red dust lies on the ground with a glowing triangle on top, the triforce of power. Upon picking it up link walks into the next room to find zelda. Zelda and link hold the two triforce peices over their heads, (power and wisdom) and the game ends. In AoL, you retrieve the triforce of courage and the combined power of the triforces are used to awaken the sleeping zelda. So Ganondorf no longer possessed the triforce at that point. Also, if you look at my timeline and assume he can only be killed with silver arrows, he is never alive where he shouldn't be (brought back to life in the oracle games)--Magnus orion 22:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Two things to keep in mind. One LoZ and AoL are old games. When they were made the creators had no idea it would grow into what it is today. There is no telling how many times the changed their minds on their timeline. Two, silver arrows are said to be able to kill Ganon without fail. But, they are used in two games. In both Ganon dies and loses the Triforce. The conditions in ALTTP and LoZ concerning his death are nearly identical. Yet ganon is revived and takes back the Triforce of power prior to LoZ. By that same reasoning, it is entirely possible for Ganon to come back again.--Matt 22:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Basically, you're saying that either an unadressed catastrophe happens and Ganon is revived again. So, I have a gut feeling that there should be a sequel to TP to explain the ending, and your timeline needs a Zelda III game. Both of our timelines are missing a game then. I really do like the idea of having some of the games before TWW, and am sick of people saying that the games go after and that the flood just goes away or something.

PS: by 'needs' I mean as a requirement to be accepted by absolutly everyone, not just yourself. For some people, simply stating there is a backstory isn't good enough.--Magnus orion 23:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Remember, in fantasy (as well as science fiction) no stays dead for long. Nintendo would always love to have another game with Ganon in it. It's what they do.--Matt 23:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't there a new Wii Zelda game in the works? I'm sure heard about it somewhere. I have no idea on the plot though. Even if it wasn't announced, you can bet that they are working on one. They always seem to be working on one, ever since OoT came out.--Matt 23:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * i don't know. About your fatansy/sci fi comment, that isn't always true, but for Zelda it is. I would also like to ask you something else, concerning both our timelines and pretty much everyone elses, too! Its about Agahnim, who is stated to be an alter-ego of Ganon, in other words he is actually ganon. But how can ganon be in the light world and dark world at the same time, and could it be that this might be able to be addressed in someone's timeline in events from previous games?--Magnus orion 23:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the phrase is a statement of a common occurrence/plot element, not fantasy/scifi law.

When you beat Agahnim in ALTTP, Ganon comes out of his body. Ganon is already in the Dark World at the time. This means that Ganon was controlling Agahnim somehow. It may be like Zant. Ganon promises ultimate power, says their wishes are now his wishes, but Ganon still takes advantage. So Ganon never possessed Agahnim until after he went to the Dark World. The portal at Hyrule Castle was open to the Dark World, yet still didn't permit a return trip. Ganon had no way out of the Dark World.--Matt 23:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I looked around on the internet a little, and it appears there may be another zelda game in development afterall (HOORAY!). As for Agahnim, what you said is possible, but Ganon called him his "alter-ego", which doesn't really sound like control to me. I have no ideas on the subject. Another thing that has been bugging me is the forms Nightmare from LA takes. Every form he takes except his first and last appear to be from aLttP, and the last could be thought of as his true form, and may have been inspiration for Vaati (though I don't like this idea). But its first form does not seem to be a aLttP boss or mini-boss like the others. It may be that there is no reason at all, but... I'd like to hear your take on it.--Magnus orion 23:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Agahnim truely did die after drawing Link into the dark world. The Ganon used that to his advantage and used Agahnim's identity. The first nightmare form is likely just a zol, you know those blob things in ALTTP and LA. Dethl is most likely made just for LA to basically represent/lead the nightmares, notice how the music gets more dramatic and desperate when he shows up. I don't like it either but I'm sorry to say that it is very likely that Dethl inspired Vaati. Most likely the creators decided that, retroactively, Dethl was the nightmare form of Vaati. The legends of Vaati would still be around in the ALTTP era so that Link would have heard about him. --Matt 00:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright. thanks for your help on putting Agahnim in a different, more sensical light (but it is still a little foggy for a Zelda game, where things are usually more heavily implied if not stated outright). You seem to share the same view as me on Nightmare.--Magnus orion 00:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The game with the least consistancy is TMC, in the Light Force, which you stated above, the piccori, and the kinstones. These all were a real big deal in minish cap, but in the other games they are never even mentioned. What do you think happened? Was it that the time between TMC and OoT was so great that all those legends actually died out? And could the Piccori have become the Kokiri, who share a few similar elements?--Magnus orion 00:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing that since Vaati caused so much trouble, that the Minish closed the portal permanently. Since Vaati absorbed a majority of the light force, the knowledge of that was lost as well. I get the impression that OoT takes place a long time after TMC. Perhaps two thousand or so years.--Matt 02:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been thinking, Doesn't Lake Hylia in TP look like it has the same position relative to the Master Sword as Hyrule/Ganon's Castle in OoT? Could that mean that the big crater that was Hyrule Castle became the new Lake Hylia. It looks like it but I thought that TP occurs because Link stops Ganondorf's take over of Hyrule. And OoT ends in Hyrule Castle. Well such is a typical Zelda paradox.--Matt 00:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I wouldn't focus on geography if I were you... The geography in zelda is no where near consistant. There are a few places that have a tendency to show up, but often in different places.--Magnus orion 01:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a headache I'd prefer to avoid. But the Master Sword's location, relative to Death Mountain, seems to be constant in all relevent games. The Lake Hylia in TP may just be some vague inside humor on the developer's part. --Matt 02:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe, but it should also be noted that the lake hylia in TP is significantly larger than the crater. They are however, in the same location relatively, I agree. However, TP is trying to show a link between OoT and aLttP, as it shows the Temple of Time falling apart, showing that it would eventually just become part of the rest of the lost woods/sacred grove. The locations of the places are not really important, but objects like the master sword and its location are. --Magnus orion 02:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Lake is much bigger than the crater. But the lake has a deep part that is comparable in size to the crater. The rest of the lake is fairly shallow in comparision, like it was carved by the water recently, geologicly speaking. But since it's most likely developer humor, its location is not as important as the Master Sword's.--Matt 02:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Theory Holes
At this point I would be perfectly happy if either of our theories where correct. They are both good and neither one should be abandoned yet. These theories deserve to be analyzed further. There are holes in the theories. We should try to close them.

I believe that we have already identified the hole in my theory and have already discussed solutions. In yours I can find one rather big one. Let's assume your theory for the discussion of this hole. At the end the Ocarina of Time, in the Adult line, the Triforce of Courage is split into eight pieces when Link goes back to his time. But in the Child line Link definitely still has the Triforce of Courage.

A possible solution is this: Since the road between the times is sealed forever, the Link's loss of the Triforce in one line cannot affect the other line. This is a rather weak solution though. --Matt 02:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, either theory could be correct, or neither, especially since we know that there is a new game on the way! I don't see what you mean, as your 'weak solution' is the one I used. The triforce of courage shattered to bits when Link went back in time, thus forcing TWW's retrieval quest. The reason for this is that there can only be one triforce of courage, and it is a requirement for the triforce to exist in both timeines. So, Link kept the triforce. Another possible solution (which just came to me and makes more sense, especially now that I am writing this and realise how little sense the last actually makes) is that Link simply lost the triforce upon traveling back in time. He does not keep it. I've always had a problem with all the Link and Zelda characters being related (in-breeding... O_O). Link may be a common name and Zelda may be a royal name or another common name, and all the heros can share similar traits (important to note here is that Link's and Zelda's hair and eye color change during the different games). But the hero is a destined hero and when Ganondorf obtained the triforce of power (I believe he managed to get into the sacred realm while they were trying to capture him) the triforce went to their respective bearers, ready or not. If the bearer died, they would go to another person. Eventually it came upon the Zelda and Link of TP. Its a bit farfetched, I know, but that is how we theorists need to fill in plot holes, right? Then hope and pray that the next games prove us right--Magnus orion 21:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it's safe to assume that the Zeldas are all related. The relationships between the Links is less clear. The Link in TWW obviously has no relation at all to any of the others. The Link in TP could be a decendent of the OoT Link, there is nothing to eliminate that possibility. From the in-game text, it is plausible that the ALTTP is a decendent of the FS/FSA Link and maybe (on your timeline) of the OoT Link. The LA Link might not have returned Hyrule and instead landed elsewhere. That would explain why the LoZ comes from another land. I am very certain that no Link is related to any Zelda.  In these decendents the Triforce would not be past from decendent to decendent, but rather comes to the one chosen by destiny. If no blood decendent is alive, then the a new hero is chosen by destiny.  Therefore many of the Links could be related but do not have to be so. Here is another solution to the theory hole. The Triforce always exists and makes sure it stays that way. When OoT Zelda sends OoT Link back to his time, and in effect sealing the door between the timelines, the Triforce of Courage made sure it still existed in both lines. Since the timelines are now seperate, there is only one Triforce of Courage in each line, but they are not copies.(that may seem weird but I'll explain) The Triforce in the adult line was the one that Link unknowingly obtained in the main storyline of the game. That Triforce is lost and split up when Link goes back to his time (a time when he still had the Triforce). At the point that he arrives back in time the timelines are split. Therefore the fate of the Triforce of Courage in the child line has no effect on the one in the adult line and vice versa. There you go, theory hole filled. It took me some time to come up with this solution.--Matt 22:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That is the end of the discussion since all details that could be worked out were worked out.--Matt 19:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)